The following table, is a small experiment in determining weather the calculations posted, are real or random. I have been trying to find a link which relates to a possible combination to determine time of event, a kind of seismic clock if you will. I use a formula of 7.5 and 7.25 degrees fore or aft of the sun and moon respectively for a given time, to construct positional models and therefore location in longitude. In theory this works, but in most cases only after the fact. Centre, fore and aft is abbreviated as CS, LS, RS, etc ... a 1 degree error should be taken into account, and the calculations should only relate to 5+ events. The objective here, is to link sun and moon positions with the co-ordinates below, at the time of events ... not position of the events.
Thank you for your tolerance
Duffy
4th Jan 19:54 ut ...... CS 117' 12' W ...... CM 40' 19' W
6th Jan 01:41 ut ...... CS 156' 12' E ....... CM 112' 06' W
6th Jan 08:28 ut ...... CS 54' 29' E ....... CM 149' 38' E
7th Jan 10:24 ut ...... CS 25' 36' E ....... CM 134' 20' E
10th Jan 15:26 ut ..... CS 49' 35' W ...... CM 103' 22' E
12th Jan 13:14 ut ..... CS 16' 23' W ...... CM 163' 59' E
15th Jan 00:26 ut ..... CS 175' 50' E ....... CM 28' 53' E
15th Jan 17:19 ut ..... CS 77' 21' W .......CM 144' 11' E
...............................................................................................................................................................................
M 5.8 Vanuatu 01:16:38 ut 16th Jan ....... CS 163' 16' E (12th Jan) ... CM 28' 41' E (15th Jan)
M 5.5 Sumatra 12:42:12 ut 16th Jan ....... LS 15' 35' W (12th Jan)
(01-16-2017, 02:01 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]The following table, is a small experiment in determining weather the calculations posted, are real or random. I have been trying to find a link which relates to a possible combination to determine time of event, a kind of seismic clock if you will. I use a formula of 7.5 and 7.25 degrees fore or aft of the sun and moon respectively for a given time, to construct positional models and therefore location in longitude. In theory this works, but in most cases only after the fact. Centre, fore and aft is abbreviated as CS, LS, RS, etc ... a 1 degree error should be taken into account, and the calculations should only relate to 5+ events. The objective here, is to link sun and moon positions with the co-ordinates below, at the time of events ... not position of the events.
Thank you for your tolerance
Duffy
4th Jan 19:54 ut ...... CS 117' 12' W ...... CM 40' 19' W
6th Jan 01:41 ut ...... CS 156' 12' E ....... CM 112' 06' W
6th Jan 08:28 ut ...... CS 54' 29' E ....... CM 149' 38' E
7th Jan 10:24 ut ...... CS 25' 36' E ....... CM 134' 20' E
10th Jan 15:26 ut ..... CS 49' 35' W ...... CM 103' 22' E
12th Jan 13:14 ut ..... CS 16' 23' W ...... CM 163' 59' E
15th Jan 00:26 ut ..... CS 175' 50' E ....... CM 28' 53' E
15th Jan 17:19 ut ..... CS 77' 21' W .......CM 144' 11' E
...............................................................................................................................................................................
M 5.8 Vanuatu 01:16:38 ut 16th Jan ....... CS 163' 16' E (12th Jan) ... CM 28' 41' E (15th Jan)
M 5.5 Sumatra 12:42:12 ut 16th Jan ....... LS 15' 35' W (12th Jan)
Duffy;
I assume the table above top is of the sun and moon at times you've seen certain patterns on your screen and the quakes show sun and/or moon positions at quake times.
But how can this be predictive? Those positions repeat every day
Roger
I have re-posted the table below and included sun / moon latitude. I believe I am granted a certain amount of tolerance here, with respect to my solar / lunar hypothesis. Not sure if this extends to other elements I use to detect anomalies, but I've decided nobody will get the point of this thread unless I include them !. Again, the object of this, is not to predict earthquakes, but to see if the data in the table has relevance to predicting time. The source of the data is not of importance unless the experiment shows different. I can say it is not linked to past seismic events or lunar data, but it is questionable. A 5.9 occurred in Cuba today on 76' 34' W, within 1 degree of the 15th Jan data below ... is that number there by chance ? , coincidence or does it have relevance ?
This experiment is real-time, and takes a lot of effort to keep pace with. It started with a 5.8 in Vanuatu with the centre of the sun on 163' E longitude. I intend to finish on 28th Jan at 01:20 ut, because this is exact time of new moon, and occurs on 163' E longitude. The abbreviations are the same as before, and dates in brackets refer to the lines of data in the table.
4th Jan 19:54 ut ... CS 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S ...... CM 40' 19' W - 1' 23' S
6th Jan 01:41 ut ... CS 156' 12' W - 22' 29' S ...... CM 112' 06' W - 4' 08' N
6th Jan 08:28 ut ... CS 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S ...... CM 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N
7th Jan 10:24 ut ... CS 25' 36' E - 22' 19' S ...... CM 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N
10th Jan 15:26 ut ... CS 49' 35' W - 21' 52' S ..... CM 103' 22' E - 18' 34' N
12th Jan 13:14 ut ... CS 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S ..... CM 163' 59' E - 18' 06' N
15th Jan 00:26 ut ... CS 175' 50' E - 21' 07' S ...... CM 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N
15th Jan 17:19 ut ... CS 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S ...... CM 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N
.................................................................................................................
16th Jan 01:16:38 ut M 5.8 Vanuatu 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S ...... CS 163' 16' E (12th Jan) ... CM 28' 41' E (15th Jan)
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15 Jan) occurred at 01:17 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Vanuatu at bearing 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S occurred at 17:19 ut on the 12th Jan (15th Jan).
16th Jan 12:42:11 ut M 5.7 Northern Sumatra 98' 22' E - 3' 24' N ....... LS 15' 35' W (12th Jan) ...............................
16th Jan 15:06:36 ut M 5.4 Kep. Tinimbar region, Indonesia 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S .....................................................
Sunset at bearing 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S (6th Jan) occurred at 15:07 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Kep. Tinimbar at bearing 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S occurred at
19:54 ut (4th Jan) on the 4th Jan
16th Jan 19:07:20 ut M 5.0 Kamchatka Peninsula 160' 04' E - 55' 31' N ....... LS 111' 51' W (6th Jan) .......................
Sunrise at bearing 156' 12' E - 22' 29' S (6th Jan) occurred at 19:08 ut on the 16th Jan
16th Jan 20:47:43 ut M 5.7 Vanuatu 166' 31' E - 13' 28' S ......................................................................................
Sunrise at bearing 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N (15th Jan) occurred at 20:47 ut on the 16th Jan
17th Jan 01:17:49 ut M 5.0 Vanuatu 166' 33' E - 13' 30' N ...... CS on 163' 03' E (12th Jan) ......................................
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 01:18 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 09:08:00 ut M5.9 Cuba 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N .............................................................................................
Transition of night to day in Cuba at bearing 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N (15th Jan) occurred at
10:24 ut (7th Jan) on the 7th Jan
17th Jan 09:21:50 ut M 5.1 South Sandwich Islands 26' 02' W - 56' 51' S ...... CM 77' 30' W (15th Jan) .....................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
Transition of day to night, at bearing 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N (6th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 11:48:39 ut M 5.2 Northern Sumatra 94' 40' E - 5' 31' N ...... CM 113' 05' W (6th Jan) ..................................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S (4th Jan) occurred at 11:48 on the 7th Jan
Over the course of the next 8 days, the sun and moon will be drawing closer together, leading up to new moon on the 28th. On 13 occasions during this period, the sun and moon will occupy 2 different longitude co-ordinates from the table above, at the same time. The following table shows when and where this will happen .........
18th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 21' W ... CM 143' 19' E
19th Jan 01:46 ut ... CS 156' 10' E .... CM 54' 30' E
19th Jan 13:16 ut ... CS 16' 18' W ... CM 112' 57' W
19th Jan 20:00 ut ... CS 117' 16' W ... CM 149' 0' E
20th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 12' W ... CM 164' 24' E
21st Jan 03:14 ut ... CS 134' 19' E ..... CM 54' 15' E
21st Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 08' W ... CM 175' 06' E
22nd Jan 10:30 ut .. CS 25' 25' E .... CM 40' 39' W
22nd Jan 15:28 ut .. CS 49' 05' W ... CM 112' 52' W
24th Jan 17:21 ut ... CS 77' 12' W .... CM 117' 21' W
27th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 41' E .... CM 163' 05' E
28th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 44' E .... CM 175' 18' E
28th Jan 01:20 ut ... CS 163' 06' E .... CM 163' 06' E (New Moon)
At the time of this post, there have only been a small number of 5+ quakes to work with, but each event has correlation with the data in the table. In some cases it even implies for a given contact in one part of the globe, an action occurs in another part. But the question remains; are these just a set of random numbers, or is it the case that you can chose any 6 days, and 8 different times and get the same results ?. I have done my best to simplify this, so I hope you find it ledge-able ... might be intriguing to see if further correlations continue up to expiry !
Duffy
(01-17-2017, 11:17 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]I have re-posted the table below and included sun / moon latitude. I believe I am granted a certain amount of tolerance here, with respect to my solar / lunar hypothesis. Not sure if this extends to other elements I use to detect anomalies, but I've decided nobody will get the point of this thread unless I include them !. Again, the object of this, is not to predict earthquakes, but to see if the data in the table has relevance to predicting time. The source of the data is not of importance unless the experiment shows different. I can say it is not linked to past seismic events or lunar data, but it is questionable. A 5.9 occurred in Cuba today on 76' 34' W, within 1 degree of the 15th Jan data below ... is that number there by chance ? , coincidence or does it have relevance ?
This experiment is real-time, and takes a lot of effort to keep pace with. It started with a 5.8 in Vanuatu with the centre of the sun on 163' E longitude. I intend to finish on 28th Jan at 01:20 ut, because this is exact time of new moon, and occurs on 163' E longitude. The abbreviations are the same as before, and dates in brackets refer to the lines of data in the table.
4th Jan 19:54 ut ... CS 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S ...... CM 40' 19' W - 1' 23' S
6th Jan 01:41 ut ... CS 156' 12' W - 22' 29' S ...... CM 112' 06' W - 4' 08' N
6th Jan 08:28 ut ... CS 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S ...... CM 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N
7th Jan 10:24 ut ... CS 25' 36' E - 22' 19' S ...... CM 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N
10th Jan 15:26 ut ... CS 49' 35' W - 21' 52' S ..... CM 103' 22' E - 18' 34' N
12th Jan 13:14 ut ... CS 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S ..... CM 163' 59' E - 18' 06' N
15th Jan 00:26 ut ... CS 175' 50' E - 21' 07' S ...... CM 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N
15th Jan 17:19 ut ... CS 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S ...... CM 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N
.................................................................................................................
16th Jan 01:16:38 ut M 5.8 Vanuatu 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S ...... CS 163' 16' E (12th Jan) ... CM 28' 41' E (15th Jan)
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15 Jan) occurred at 01:17 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Vanuatu at bearing 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S occurred at 17:19 ut on the 12th Jan (15th Jan).
16th Jan 12:42:11 ut M 5.7 Northern Sumatra 98' 22' E - 3' 24' N ....... LS 15' 35' W (12th Jan) ...............................
16th Jan 15:06:36 ut M 5.4 Kep. Tinimbar region, Indonesia 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S .....................................................
Sunset at bearing 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S (6th Jan) occurred at 15:07 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Kep. Tinimbar at bearing 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S occurred at
19:54 ut (4th Jan) on the 4th Jan
16th Jan 19:07:20 ut M 5.0 Kamchatka Peninsula 160' 04' E - 55' 31' N ....... LS 111' 51' W (6th Jan) .......................
Sunrise at bearing 156' 12' E - 22' 29' S (6th Jan) occurred at 19:08 ut on the 16th Jan
16th Jan 20:47:43 ut M 5.7 Vanuatu 166' 31' E - 13' 28' S ......................................................................................
Sunrise at bearing 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N (15th Jan) occurred at 20:47 ut on the 16th Jan
17th Jan 01:17:49 ut M 5.0 Vanuatu 166' 33' E - 13' 30' N ...... CS on 163' 03' E (12th Jan) ......................................
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 01:18 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 09:08:00 ut M5.9 Cuba 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N .............................................................................................
Transition of night to day in Cuba at bearing 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N (15th Jan) occurred at
10:24 ut (7th Jan) on the 7th Jan
17th Jan 09:21:50 ut M 5.1 South Sandwich Islands 26' 02' W - 56' 51' S ...... CM 77' 30' W (15th Jan) .....................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
Transition of day to night, at bearing 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N (6th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 11:48:39 ut M 5.2 Northern Sumatra 94' 40' E - 5' 31' N ...... CM 113' 05' W (6th Jan) ..................................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S (4th Jan) occurred at 11:48 on the 7th Jan
Over the course of the next 8 days, the sun and moon will be drawing closer together, leading up to new moon on the 28th. On 13 occasions during this period, the sun and moon will occupy 2 different longitude co-ordinates from the table above, at the same time. The following table shows when and where this will happen .........
18th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 21' W ... CM 143' 19' E
19th Jan 01:46 ut ... CS 156' 10' E .... CM 54' 30' E
19th Jan 13:16 ut ... CS 16' 18' W ... CM 112' 57' W
19th Jan 20:00 ut ... CS 117' 16' W ... CM 149' 0' E
20th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 12' W ... CM 164' 24' E
21st Jan 03:14 ut ... CS 134' 19' E ..... CM 54' 15' E
21st Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 08' W ... CM 175' 06' E
22nd Jan 10:30 ut .. CS 25' 25' E .... CM 40' 39' W
22nd Jan 15:28 ut .. CS 49' 05' W ... CM 112' 52' W
24th Jan 17:21 ut ... CS 77' 12' W .... CM 117' 21' W
27th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 41' E .... CM 163' 05' E
28th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 44' E .... CM 175' 18' E
28th Jan 01:20 ut ... CS 163' 06' E .... CM 163' 06' E (New Moon)
At the time of this post, there have only been a small number of 5+ quakes to work with, but each event has correlation with the data in the table. In some cases it even implies for a given contact in one part of the globe, an action occurs in another part. But the question remains; are these just a set of random numbers, or is it the case that you can chose any 6 days, and 8 different times and get the same results ?. I have done my best to simplify this, so I hope you find it ledge-able ... might be intriguing to see if further correlations continue up to expiry !
Duffy
Duffy;
I'm puzzled by how fast you have the moon moving in these tables. It takes 28 days to circle the earth so how does it get half way around in less than a day? Or am I just overlooking the earth's rotation?
I'm not an astronomer so this may just be an ignorant question.
Roger
(01-18-2017, 12:00 AM)Roger Hunter Wrote: [ -> ] (01-17-2017, 11:17 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]I have re-posted the table below and included sun / moon latitude. I believe I am granted a certain amount of tolerance here, with respect to my solar / lunar hypothesis. Not sure if this extends to other elements I use to detect anomalies, but I've decided nobody will get the point of this thread unless I include them !. Again, the object of this, is not to predict earthquakes, but to see if the data in the table has relevance to predicting time. The source of the data is not of importance unless the experiment shows different. I can say it is not linked to past seismic events or lunar data, but it is questionable. A 5.9 occurred in Cuba today on 76' 34' W, within 1 degree of the 15th Jan data below ... is that number there by chance ? , coincidence or does it have relevance ?
This experiment is real-time, and takes a lot of effort to keep pace with. It started with a 5.8 in Vanuatu with the centre of the sun on 163' E longitude. I intend to finish on 28th Jan at 01:20 ut, because this is exact time of new moon, and occurs on 163' E longitude. The abbreviations are the same as before, and dates in brackets refer to the lines of data in the table.
4th Jan 19:54 ut ... CS 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S ...... CM 40' 19' W - 1' 23' S
6th Jan 01:41 ut ... CS 156' 12' W - 22' 29' S ...... CM 112' 06' W - 4' 08' N
6th Jan 08:28 ut ... CS 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S ...... CM 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N
7th Jan 10:24 ut ... CS 25' 36' E - 22' 19' S ...... CM 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N
10th Jan 15:26 ut ... CS 49' 35' W - 21' 52' S ..... CM 103' 22' E - 18' 34' N
12th Jan 13:14 ut ... CS 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S ..... CM 163' 59' E - 18' 06' N
15th Jan 00:26 ut ... CS 175' 50' E - 21' 07' S ...... CM 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N
15th Jan 17:19 ut ... CS 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S ...... CM 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N
.................................................................................................................
16th Jan 01:16:38 ut M 5.8 Vanuatu 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S ...... CS 163' 16' E (12th Jan) ... CM 28' 41' E (15th Jan)
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15 Jan) occurred at 01:17 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Vanuatu at bearing 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S occurred at 17:19 ut on the 12th Jan (15th Jan).
16th Jan 12:42:11 ut M 5.7 Northern Sumatra 98' 22' E - 3' 24' N ....... LS 15' 35' W (12th Jan) ...............................
16th Jan 15:06:36 ut M 5.4 Kep. Tinimbar region, Indonesia 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S .....................................................
Sunset at bearing 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S (6th Jan) occurred at 15:07 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Kep. Tinimbar at bearing 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S occurred at
19:54 ut (4th Jan) on the 4th Jan
16th Jan 19:07:20 ut M 5.0 Kamchatka Peninsula 160' 04' E - 55' 31' N ....... LS 111' 51' W (6th Jan) .......................
Sunrise at bearing 156' 12' E - 22' 29' S (6th Jan) occurred at 19:08 ut on the 16th Jan
16th Jan 20:47:43 ut M 5.7 Vanuatu 166' 31' E - 13' 28' S ......................................................................................
Sunrise at bearing 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N (15th Jan) occurred at 20:47 ut on the 16th Jan
17th Jan 01:17:49 ut M 5.0 Vanuatu 166' 33' E - 13' 30' N ...... CS on 163' 03' E (12th Jan) ......................................
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 01:18 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 09:08:00 ut M5.9 Cuba 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N .............................................................................................
Transition of night to day in Cuba at bearing 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N (15th Jan) occurred at
10:24 ut (7th Jan) on the 7th Jan
17th Jan 09:21:50 ut M 5.1 South Sandwich Islands 26' 02' W - 56' 51' S ...... CM 77' 30' W (15th Jan) .....................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
Transition of day to night, at bearing 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N (6th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 11:48:39 ut M 5.2 Northern Sumatra 94' 40' E - 5' 31' N ...... CM 113' 05' W (6th Jan) ..................................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S (4th Jan) occurred at 11:48 on the 7th Jan
Over the course of the next 8 days, the sun and moon will be drawing closer together, leading up to new moon on the 28th. On 13 occasions during this period, the sun and moon will occupy 2 different longitude co-ordinates from the table above, at the same time. The following table shows when and where this will happen .........
18th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 21' W ... CM 143' 19' E
19th Jan 01:46 ut ... CS 156' 10' E .... CM 54' 30' E
19th Jan 13:16 ut ... CS 16' 18' W ... CM 112' 57' W
19th Jan 20:00 ut ... CS 117' 16' W ... CM 149' 0' E
20th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 12' W ... CM 164' 24' E
21st Jan 03:14 ut ... CS 134' 19' E ..... CM 54' 15' E
21st Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 08' W ... CM 175' 06' E
22nd Jan 10:30 ut .. CS 25' 25' E .... CM 40' 39' W
22nd Jan 15:28 ut .. CS 49' 05' W ... CM 112' 52' W
24th Jan 17:21 ut ... CS 77' 12' W .... CM 117' 21' W
27th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 41' E .... CM 163' 05' E
28th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 44' E .... CM 175' 18' E
28th Jan 01:20 ut ... CS 163' 06' E .... CM 163' 06' E (New Moon)
At the time of this post, there have only been a small number of 5+ quakes to work with, but each event has correlation with the data in the table. In some cases it even implies for a given contact in one part of the globe, an action occurs in another part. But the question remains; are these just a set of random numbers, or is it the case that you can chose any 6 days, and 8 different times and get the same results ?. I have done my best to simplify this, so I hope you find it ledge-able ... might be intriguing to see if further correlations continue up to expiry !
Duffy
Duffy;
I'm puzzled by how fast you have the moon moving in these tables. It takes 28 days to circle the earth so how does it get half way around in less than a day? Or am I just overlooking the earth's rotation?
I'm not an astronomer so this may just be an ignorant question.
Roger
The moon has a velocity of approx 14.5 degrees per hour, relative to longitude of the earth. If the moon was at 0' longitude at 12 noon, it would be at 29' W at 14:00 ut , it takes 29.53 days for the moon to circle the Earth relative to celestial longitude. Not an ignorant question ... I used to think earthquakes only happened when I saw them in the news !
Duffy
(01-18-2017, 12:35 AM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ] (01-18-2017, 12:00 AM)Roger Hunter Wrote: [ -> ] (01-17-2017, 11:17 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]I have re-posted the table below and included sun / moon latitude. I believe I am granted a certain amount of tolerance here, with respect to my solar / lunar hypothesis. Not sure if this extends to other elements I use to detect anomalies, but I've decided nobody will get the point of this thread unless I include them !. Again, the object of this, is not to predict earthquakes, but to see if the data in the table has relevance to predicting time. The source of the data is not of importance unless the experiment shows different. I can say it is not linked to past seismic events or lunar data, but it is questionable. A 5.9 occurred in Cuba today on 76' 34' W, within 1 degree of the 15th Jan data below ... is that number there by chance ? , coincidence or does it have relevance ?
This experiment is real-time, and takes a lot of effort to keep pace with. It started with a 5.8 in Vanuatu with the centre of the sun on 163' E longitude. I intend to finish on 28th Jan at 01:20 ut, because this is exact time of new moon, and occurs on 163' E longitude. The abbreviations are the same as before, and dates in brackets refer to the lines of data in the table.
4th Jan 19:54 ut ... CS 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S ...... CM 40' 19' W - 1' 23' S
6th Jan 01:41 ut ... CS 156' 12' W - 22' 29' S ...... CM 112' 06' W - 4' 08' N
6th Jan 08:28 ut ... CS 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S ...... CM 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N
7th Jan 10:24 ut ... CS 25' 36' E - 22' 19' S ...... CM 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N
10th Jan 15:26 ut ... CS 49' 35' W - 21' 52' S ..... CM 103' 22' E - 18' 34' N
12th Jan 13:14 ut ... CS 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S ..... CM 163' 59' E - 18' 06' N
15th Jan 00:26 ut ... CS 175' 50' E - 21' 07' S ...... CM 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N
15th Jan 17:19 ut ... CS 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S ...... CM 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N
.................................................................................................................
16th Jan 01:16:38 ut M 5.8 Vanuatu 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S ...... CS 163' 16' E (12th Jan) ... CM 28' 41' E (15th Jan)
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15 Jan) occurred at 01:17 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Vanuatu at bearing 166' 26' E - 13' 36' S occurred at 17:19 ut on the 12th Jan (15th Jan).
16th Jan 12:42:11 ut M 5.7 Northern Sumatra 98' 22' E - 3' 24' N ....... LS 15' 35' W (12th Jan) ...............................
16th Jan 15:06:36 ut M 5.4 Kep. Tinimbar region, Indonesia 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S .....................................................
Sunset at bearing 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S (6th Jan) occurred at 15:07 ut 16th Jan
Transition of night to day in Kep. Tinimbar at bearing 130' 06' E - 7' 46' S occurred at
19:54 ut (4th Jan) on the 4th Jan
16th Jan 19:07:20 ut M 5.0 Kamchatka Peninsula 160' 04' E - 55' 31' N ....... LS 111' 51' W (6th Jan) .......................
Sunrise at bearing 156' 12' E - 22' 29' S (6th Jan) occurred at 19:08 ut on the 16th Jan
16th Jan 20:47:43 ut M 5.7 Vanuatu 166' 31' E - 13' 28' S ......................................................................................
Sunrise at bearing 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N (15th Jan) occurred at 20:47 ut on the 16th Jan
17th Jan 01:17:49 ut M 5.0 Vanuatu 166' 33' E - 13' 30' N ...... CS on 163' 03' E (12th Jan) ......................................
Transition of day to night, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 01:18 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 09:08:00 ut M5.9 Cuba 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N .............................................................................................
Transition of night to day in Cuba at bearing 76' 34' W - 19' 54' N (15th Jan) occurred at
10:24 ut (7th Jan) on the 7th Jan
17th Jan 09:21:50 ut M 5.1 South Sandwich Islands 26' 02' W - 56' 51' S ...... CM 77' 30' W (15th Jan) .....................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
Transition of day to night, at bearing 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N (6th Jan) occurred at 09:22 ut 17th Jan
17th Jan 11:48:39 ut M 5.2 Northern Sumatra 94' 40' E - 5' 31' N ...... CM 113' 05' W (6th Jan) ..................................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S (4th Jan) occurred at 11:48 on the 7th Jan
Over the course of the next 8 days, the sun and moon will be drawing closer together, leading up to new moon on the 28th. On 13 occasions during this period, the sun and moon will occupy 2 different longitude co-ordinates from the table above, at the same time. The following table shows when and where this will happen .........
18th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 21' W ... CM 143' 19' E
19th Jan 01:46 ut ... CS 156' 10' E .... CM 54' 30' E
19th Jan 13:16 ut ... CS 16' 18' W ... CM 112' 57' W
19th Jan 20:00 ut ... CS 117' 16' W ... CM 149' 0' E
20th Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 12' W ... CM 164' 24' E
21st Jan 03:14 ut ... CS 134' 19' E ..... CM 54' 15' E
21st Jan 19:40 ut ... CS 112' 08' W ... CM 175' 06' E
22nd Jan 10:30 ut .. CS 25' 25' E .... CM 40' 39' W
22nd Jan 15:28 ut .. CS 49' 05' W ... CM 112' 52' W
24th Jan 17:21 ut ... CS 77' 12' W .... CM 117' 21' W
27th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 41' E .... CM 163' 05' E
28th Jan 00:30 ut ... CS 175' 44' E .... CM 175' 18' E
28th Jan 01:20 ut ... CS 163' 06' E .... CM 163' 06' E (New Moon)
At the time of this post, there have only been a small number of 5+ quakes to work with, but each event has correlation with the data in the table. In some cases it even implies for a given contact in one part of the globe, an action occurs in another part. But the question remains; are these just a set of random numbers, or is it the case that you can chose any 6 days, and 8 different times and get the same results ?. I have done my best to simplify this, so I hope you find it ledge-able ... might be intriguing to see if further correlations continue up to expiry !
Duffy
Duffy;
I'm puzzled by how fast you have the moon moving in these tables. It takes 28 days to circle the earth so how does it get half way around in less than a day? Or am I just overlooking the earth's rotation?
I'm not an astronomer so this may just be an ignorant question.
Roger
The moon has a velocity of approx 14.5 degrees per hour, relative to longitude of the earth. If the moon was at 0' longitude at 12 noon, it would be at 29' W at 14:00 ut , it takes 29.53 days for the moon to circle the Earth relative to celestial longitude. Not an ignorant question ... I used to think earthquakes only happened when I saw them in the news !
Duffy
Duffy;
Yes it's an ignorant question. i know the sun moves that fast because of the earth's rotation. It should have been obvious the moon would do the same.
Roger
(01-18-2017, 02:57 AM)Roger Hunter Wrote: [ -> ] (01-18-2017, 12:35 AM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ] (01-18-2017, 12:00 AM)Roger Hunter Wrote: [ -> ] (01-17-2017, 11:17 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]I have re-posted the table below and included sun / moon latitude. I believe I am granted a certain amount of tolerance here, with respect to my solar / lunar hypothesis. Not sure if this extends to other elements I use to detect anomalies, but I've decided nobody will get the point of this thread unless I include them !. Again, the object of this, is not to predict earthquakes, but to see if the data in the table has relevance to predicting time. The source of the data is not of importance unless the experiment shows different. I can say it is not linked to past seismic events or lunar data, but it is questionable. A 5.9 occurred in Cuba today on 76' 34' W, within 1 degree of the 15th Jan data below ... is that number there by chance ? , coincidence or does it have relevance ?
This experiment is real-time, and takes a lot of effort to keep pace with. It started with a 5.8 in Vanuatu with the centre of the sun on 163' E longitude. I intend to finish on 28th Jan at 01:20 ut, because this is exact time of new moon, and occurs on 163' E longitude. The abbreviations are the same as before, and dates in brackets refer to the lines of data in the table.
4th Jan 19:54 ut ... CS 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S ...... CM 40' 19' W - 1' 23' S
6th Jan 01:41 ut ... CS 156' 12' W - 22' 29' S ...... CM 112' 06' W - 4' 08' N
6th Jan 08:28 ut ... CS 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S ...... CM 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N
7th Jan 10:24 ut ... CS 25' 36' E - 22' 19' S ...... CM 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N
10th Jan 15:26 ut ... CS 49' 35' W - 21' 52' S ..... CM 103' 22' E - 18' 34' N
12th Jan 13:14 ut ... CS 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S ..... CM 163' 59' E - 18' 06' N
15th Jan 00:26 ut ... CS 175' 50' E - 21' 07' S ...... CM 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N
15th Jan 17:19 ut ... CS 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S ...... CM 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N
18th Jan 18:54 ut ... CS 100' 51' W - 20' 23' S ...... CM 154' 29' E - 3' 09' S
.................................................................................................................
Today's events 18th Jan
18th Jan M 5.2 Southwest of Africa 02:02:27 ut ... 9' 56' E - 52' 55' S ...... LS 144' 29' E (15th Jan) ............
18th Jan M 5.3 Central Italy 09:25:41 ut ... 13' 15' E - 42' 33' N .................................................................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred
at 09:25 ut on the 18th Jan.
18th Jan M 5.7 Central Italy 10:14:12 ut ... 13' 19' E - 42' 38' N ...... CS 29' 04' E (15th Jan) .......................
Transition of day to night, at bearing 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N (7th Jan) occurred
at 10:15 ut on the 18th Jan
18th Jan M 5.6 Central Italy 10:25:26 ut ... 13' 21' E - 42' 33' N ...... CS 26' 16' E (7th Jan) .........................
18th Jan M 5.0 Aleutian Islands 11:18:17 ut ... 179' 39' W - 51' 31' N ... Centre of Sun 13' 03' E !!
After the 5.6 Italy event, the cycle was broken, but it is possible that it will continue again tomorrow (19th) after the sun has again passed 13' East ... there have been no intervening mag 6 quakes to permanently disrupt the established contacts.
I was surprised to see that Italy had experienced a mad Hour of 5+ quakes today, especially so soon after the 6+ quakes it had in October. In Sumatra and the Philippines, it is generally accepted, so is this still the Norm in Italy ?. There is no direct connection to Central Italy in the table above ... but I did find correlation !
Sunrise in Amatrice, Italy for the 17th - 18th Jan, at bearing 13' 19' E - 42' 38' N occurrred at 06:36 ut
Sunrise at bearing 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S (12th Jan) for the 17th - 18th Jan occurred at 06:36 ut
Sunset in Amatrice, Italy for the 17th - 18th Jan, at bearing 13'19' E - 42' 38' N occurred at 15:59 ut
Sunset at bearing 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N (15th Jan) for the 15th - 18th Jan occurred at 15:59 ut
Transition of day to night, in Amatrice, Italy bearing 13' 19' E - 42' 38' N occurred at 17:42 ut on the 17th Jan
Transition of night to day at bearing 156' 12' E - 22' 29' S (6th Jan) occurred at 17:42 ut on the 17th Jan
The Jury is still out on this one ... but if I had chosen random days, times and co-ordinates, and posted them 3 days ago ... how could they be so closely connected to a location in Italy, that has just experienced multiple 5's again ? Does this in any way imply that sunrise / sunset could actually be used to track down impending seismic events ?... I think it does, because this is what I use to determine locations for my predictions. But I also think they can be used to determine time of event, once the right sequence is found. Unfortunately, this could be a long time in the future, because in both cases, one would first have to accept the possibility that solar / lunar influences may play a part in priming a seismic event.
What happened in Italy today, gives a good indication that another event may occur on the opposite longitude. My other data indicates a strong signal in the Aleutian Islands at approx 168' 30' W - 53' N. I got a hit near here on the 9th Jan at 169' W, but my prediction indicated there may be two. Once the 9th Jan had occurred, resolution improved showing something still remained at the fore mentioned co-ordinates. If my assumption is correct, then other clues are to be found in the data table ... the main one being 112' 06' W. The second table I posted, shows 112' W as the prominent bearing. On three occasions the sun lies on 112' W longitude, but each time it does, it is also sunrise on 168' W - 53' N. Any influence can only be established by reactions in the space data at this time. If the correlation with Amatrice, Italy is considered significant, then the pieces are here in this data to find the next one, if you find how they link together ... you find the time !
I sourced another line of data today, and have included it in the table ...
Duffy
(01-18-2017, 11:46 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ] (01-18-2017, 02:57 AM)Roger Hunter Wrote: [ -> ] (01-18-2017, 12:35 AM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ] (01-18-2017, 12:00 AM)Roger Hunter Wrote: [ -> ] (01-17-2017, 11:17 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]I have re-posted the table below and included sun / moon latitude. I believe I am granted a certain amount of tolerance here, with respect to my solar / lunar hypothesis. Not sure if this extends to other elements I use to detect anomalies, but I've decided nobody will get the point of this thread unless I include them !. Again, the object of this, is not to predict earthquakes, but to see if the data in the table has relevance to predicting time. The source of the data is not of importance unless the experiment shows different. I can say it is not linked to past seismic events or lunar data, but it is questionable. A 5.9 occurred in Cuba today on 76' 34' W, within 1 degree of the 15th Jan data below ... is that number there by chance ? , coincidence or does it have relevance ?
This experiment is real-time, and takes a lot of effort to keep pace with. It started with a 5.8 in Vanuatu with the centre of the sun on 163' E longitude. I intend to finish on 28th Jan at 01:20 ut, because this is exact time of new moon, and occurs on 163' E longitude. The abbreviations are the same as before, and dates in brackets refer to the lines of data in the table.
4th Jan 19:54 ut ... CS 117' 12' W - 22' 38' S ...... CM 40' 19' W - 1' 23' S
6th Jan 01:41 ut ... CS 156' 12' W - 22' 29' S ...... CM 112' 06' W - 4' 08' N
6th Jan 08:28 ut ... CS 54' 29' E - 22' 27' S ...... CM 149' 38' E - 5' 22' N
7th Jan 10:24 ut ... CS 25' 36' E - 22' 19' S ...... CM 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N
10th Jan 15:26 ut ... CS 49' 35' W - 21' 52' S ..... CM 103' 22' E - 18' 34' N
12th Jan 13:14 ut ... CS 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S ..... CM 163' 59' E - 18' 06' N
15th Jan 00:26 ut ... CS 175' 50' E - 21' 07' S ...... CM 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N
15th Jan 17:19 ut ... CS 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S ...... CM 144' 11' E - 9' 04' N
18th Jan 18:54 ut ... CS 100' 51' W - 20' 23' S ...... CM 154' 29' E - 3' 09' S
.................................................................................................................
Today's events 18th Jan
18th Jan M 5.2 Southwest of Africa 02:02:27 ut ... 9' 56' E - 52' 55' S ...... LS 144' 29' E (15th Jan) ............
18th Jan M 5.3 Central Italy 09:25:41 ut ... 13' 15' E - 42' 33' N .................................................................
Transition of night to day, at bearing 77' 21' W - 20' 59' S (15th Jan) occurred
at 09:25 ut on the 18th Jan.
18th Jan M 5.7 Central Italy 10:14:12 ut ... 13' 19' E - 42' 38' N ...... CS 29' 04' E (15th Jan) .......................
Transition of day to night, at bearing 134' 20' E - 9' 55' N (7th Jan) occurred
at 10:15 ut on the 18th Jan
18th Jan M 5.6 Central Italy 10:25:26 ut ... 13' 21' E - 42' 33' N ...... CS 26' 16' E (7th Jan) .........................
18th Jan M 5.0 Aleutian Islands 11:18:17 ut ... 179' 39' W - 51' 31' N ... Centre of Sun 13' 03' E !!
After the 5.6 Italy event, the cycle was broken, but it is possible that it will continue again tomorrow (19th) after the sun has again passed 13' East ... there have been no intervening mag 6 quakes to permanently disrupt the established contacts.
I was surprised to see that Italy had experienced a mad Hour of 5+ quakes today, especially so soon after the 6+ quakes it had in October. In Sumatra and the Philippines, it is generally accepted, so is this still the Norm in Italy ?. There is no direct connection to Central Italy in the table above ... but I did find correlation !
Sunrise in Amatrice, Italy for the 17th - 18th Jan, at bearing 13' 19' E - 42' 38' N occurrred at 06:36 ut
Sunrise at bearing 16' 23' W - 21' 33' S (12th Jan) for the 17th - 18th Jan occurred at 06:36 ut
Sunset in Amatrice, Italy for the 17th - 18th Jan, at bearing 13'19' E - 42' 38' N occurred at 15:59 ut
Sunset at bearing 28' 53' E - 11' 39' N (15th Jan) for the 15th - 18th Jan occurred at 15:59 ut
Transition of day to night, in Amatrice, Italy bearing 13' 19' E - 42' 38' N occurred at 17:42 ut on the 17th Jan
Transition of night to day at bearing 156' 12' E - 22' 29' S (6th Jan) occurred at 17:42 ut on the 17th Jan
The Jury is still out on this one ... but if I had chosen random days, times and co-ordinates, and posted them 3 days ago ... how could they be so closely connected to a location in Italy, that has just experienced multiple 5's again ? Does this in any way imply that sunrise / sunset could actually be used to track down impending seismic events ?... I think it does, because this is what I use to determine locations for my predictions. But I also think they can be used to determine time of event, once the right sequence is found. Unfortunately, this could be a long time in the future, because in both cases, one would first have to accept the possibility that solar / lunar influences may play a part in priming a seismic event.
What happened in Italy today, gives a good indication that another event may occur on the opposite longitude. My other data indicates a strong signal in the Aleutian Islands at approx 168' 30' W - 53' N. I got a hit near here on the 9th Jan at 169' W, but my prediction indicated there may be two. Once the 9th Jan had occurred, resolution improved showing something still remained at the fore mentioned co-ordinates. If my assumption is correct, then other clues are to be found in the data table ... the main one being 112' 06' W. The second table I posted, shows 112' W as the prominent bearing. On three occasions the sun lies on 112' W longitude, but each time it does, it is also sunrise on 168' W - 53' N. Any influence can only be established by reactions in the space data at this time. If the correlation with Amatrice, Italy is considered significant, then the pieces are here in this data to find the next one, if you find how they link together ... you find the time !
I sourced another line of data today, and have included it in the table ...
Duffy
Duffy;
Here's what I think is happening. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You see a familiar pattern which determines a longitude for sun and moon at that time.
Next you take a fairly broad band to the quakes for the next month involving sun, moon, and longitudes on the opposite side of the earth.
Any correspondence is taken as a hit but you don't count the rest as misses..
You're misleading yourself.
I think if you plot all this on a map you'll see the size of the net you're casting, raising the odds on a hit.
I'm not currently able to do that but I'm pretty sure it needs to be done.
Roger
Roger;
Forgive me but you are missing the point. You are trying to analyse how I get the data, and not what the data means in relation to recent quake activity. Nor am I predicting, I gave account of a possible scenario using the data in the table ... that's why this is experimental, not predictable. Also, if I am correctly predicting the majority of longitudes in my attempts, you state this is something worth investigating. If I happen to get latitude with one of these attempts, it's a chance occurrence ... and I am misleading myself ! As a serious matter of interest, do you have record of how many chance occurrences there have been on Earthwaves ?
There is one line of data in the table dated 7th Jan 10:24 ut, it shows that the centre of the moon was on 134' 20' E by 9' 55' N at this time. I googled this location, there is nothing there except a small sea mound in the South Philippine sea. I posted this detail at 14:01 ut on the 16th Jan ... do you agree that this information is correct ?
Another line of data is dated 15th Jan 00:26 ut, it shows the centre of the moon was on 28' 53' E by 11' 39' N at this time, and was posted at the same time as the data above ... do you agree that this information is also correct ?
At 10:15:56 ut today (19th) a 5.0 quake occurred on the West Indian Antarctic Ridge at bearing 127' 29' E by 49' 02' S. At this exact time, the centre of the sun was on 28' 43' E longitude. That's 11 miles West of the longitude posted in the 15th Jan data !. Also at the exact time this quake occurred, it was officially night at 10:16 ut, on the little sea mound in the South Philippine sea at bearing 134' 20' E by 9' 55' N.
There are 129,600 square degrees on Earth's surface, and the crosses on my map occupy 16 of them ... look at this data and tell me " you don't find this the slightest bit intriguing". You are the scientist, I am asking you or others that find this interesting, weather this data is significant ? ... not the source it originated from
Just as I had mentioned earlier in this thread; millions of people will be aware that an earthquake occurred in Italy yesterday. The news is reporting on efforts to find survivors in a buried hotel in Central Italy, after the quakes triggered an avalanche. Only a few thousand will know an insignificant earthquake took place in the antarctic. I can find the dots, but I don't know how to join them ... that's for a scientist to do.
No offence Roger, but I don't want to spend the next few days defending myself against your assumptions. So either I continue this experiment as planned, and see if it leads anywhere, or I terminate it here ... your call !
Duffy
(01-19-2017, 03:27 PM)Duffy Wrote: [ -> ]Roger;
>>Forgive me but you are missing the point.
It wouldn't be the first time. Bear with me.
>> You are trying to analyse how I get the data, and not what the data means in relation to recent quake activity. Nor am I predicting, I gave account of a possible scenario using the data in the table ... that's why this is experimental, not predictable.
I'm trying to understand how you do it to understand the consequences of what you're doing.
>> Also, if I am correctly predicting the majority of longitudes in my attempts, you state this is something worth investigating.
Correct.
>> If I happen to get latitude with one of these attempts, it's a chance occurrence ... and I am misleading myself !
No, I suspect getting a quake at the right longitude is a matter of chance.
>> As a serious matter of interest, do you have record of how many chance occurrences there have been on Earthwaves ?
No. I don't investigate everything.
>> There is one line of data in the table dated 7th Jan 10:24 ut, it shows that the centre of the moon was on 134' 20' E by 9' 55' N at this time. I googled this location, there is nothing there except a small sea mound in the South Philippine sea. I posted this detail at 14:01 ut on the 16th Jan ... do you agree that this information is correct ?
I'll take your word for it.
>> Another line of data is dated 15th Jan 00:26 ut, it shows the centre of the moon was on 28' 53' E by 11' 39' N at this time, and was posted at the same time as the data above ... do you agree that this information is also correct ?
Again, I'll take your word for it.
>> At 10:15:56 ut today (19th) a 5.0 quake occurred on the West Indian Antarctic Ridge at bearing 127' 29' E by 49' 02' S. At this exact time, the centre of the sun was on 28' 43' E longitude. That's 11 miles West of the longitude posted in the 15th Jan data !. Also at the exact time this quake occurred, it was officially night at 10:16 ut, on the little sea mound in the South Philippine sea at bearing 134' 20' E by 9' 55' N.
Ok
>> There are 129,600 square degrees on Earth's surface, and the crosses on my map occupy 16 of them ... look at this data and tell me " you don't find this the slightest bit intriguing". You are the scientist, I am asking you or others that find this interesting, weather this data is significant ? ... not the source it originated from
Only if you can do it more than chance would allow. That's what I'm trying to determine which is why I need to know exactly how you do it. I need to reproduce your method correctly to accurately test it. I can do it a thousand times in seconds.
>> Just as I had mentioned earlier in this thread; millions of people will be aware that an earthquake occurred in Italy yesterday. The news is reporting on efforts to find survivors in a buried hotel in Central Italy, after the quakes triggered an avalanche. Only a few thousand will know an insignificant earthquake took place in the antarctic. I can find the dots, but I don't know how to join them ... that's for a scientist to do.
I'm trying.
>> No offence Roger, but I don't want to spend the next few days defending myself against your assumptions. So either I continue this experiment as planned, and see if it leads anywhere, or I terminate it here ... your call !
Relax Duffy, I'm not your enemy. Work with me on this so I can do it correctly. I need to reproduce your method to test it and if my test says you're on to something then Manchester may have grant money. Or not, I don't know.
Roger